Garfman >> senin maret 1 - 09:47

In light of recent publications in the media (the Guardian -> 6,500 casualties because of the build), what do you guys think about this event? Should this go through, yes or no?

Kalle >> senin maret 1 - 12:26

Imo no. Or at least countries should not participate.

But im wise enough to understand cash is king and nothing will happen.

Numpty >> senin maret 1 - 12:43, telah di sunting senin maret 1 - 12:48

As Kalle says nothing will happen. 

The difficulty is these are just allegations based on statistics with seemingly little evidence of culpability. There can be a very fine line between human rights abuses and poor health and safety standards. 

There also are many other countries with far worse records that participate in the qualification tournaments. If you pull out where do you draw the line and who decides which other countries should be banned from competing in the qualifiers?  

My suggestion would be to make it a condition of any future awards that an independent body is appointed to oversee health and safety and potentially any other aspects of concern.

Kalle >> senin maret 1 - 13:07

Thats a great suggestion Numpty!

Numpty >> senin maret 1 - 13:21

Thanks.

Another problem is that most of these deaths are migrant workers who came from countries that also have poor health and safety standards. Most likely they would have faced similar risks if working in their own country. 

Every death is, of course, a tragedy to the indivdual families but if they had died in similar circumstances in their own countries it wouldn't even make the news. 

The idea of North Korea, Iran and others being allowed to participate but then refusing to play in Qatar would be the height of hypocrisy. I'm not giving a longer list of countries to avoid this becoming political. And that's the real problem here.

Garfman >> senin maret 1 - 13:34

Well, considering I was already aware of the circumstances that people work under in this country (with a wife from the Philippines, having family members who are actually working there), I was already against this from the moment this choice was made (even setting aside the corruption that was most likely involved in this, because no sane person could see the practicality of holding a World Cup in a place like this), and this is a confirmation of my worst fears. I also know that, considering the numbers that were reported are just based on 4 countries, I can say with a relative degree of certainty that the numbers are considerably higher (north of 10,000, no doubt). Yes, there is the caveat that most of these deaths were not actually because of safety issues (in fact, this was a very small percentage), but rather due to the heat. However, you cannot say that those in charge were not aware of these circumstances. The fact that they're underreporting these, says enough, I'd say.

I do not think that anything will happen either, realistically speaking. Money is what the football world has come to revolve around. More and more. Principles of any kind have nothing to do with it. I'd be surprised if any of the players who have been so adament about things like BLM or other recent issues will make themselves heard about this.

That doesn't mean, though, that that we should just watch, because we're not going to change anything, supposedly. As a matter a fact, the football viewer holds incredible power in this respect. If no one is going to watch this tournament, buy merchandise, visit, and so on, don't you think they'll think twice before holding an event in such a place again? Considering that cash is king, as Kalle said?

Though of course, realistically, I don't see that happening either. But for me, just because it won't make a difference, doesn't mean you shouldn't do anything. I already decided not to watch when it was appointed, and that won't change.

Garfman >> senin maret 1 - 13:38

I think point to hypocrysy is a bit too easy, because if that's the argument you're going to use, you cannot be opposed to anything, considering there might always be some form of hypocrysy involved, or on some aspect that someone is morally compromised.

Numpty >> senin maret 1 - 13:52, telah di sunting senin maret 1 - 14:01

I have every sympathy with that.

As you say it seems like a large number of the deaths were heat related and those in charge have a careless attitude towards the lives and wellbeing of the migrant workers. They are treated as disposable commodities.

Besides that there is the likely corruption in the first place.  

I just don't know what can realistically be achieved when FIFA is an  organisation with enormous power but plagued by infighting, corruption and politics. What really needs to change is the way that FIFA itself is organised.

My point about hypocrisy is that if we're to make moral judgements about the behaviour of other countries then you can't cherry pick. We have to draw up a list and start with the worst ones. Every country would have a different list. At which point you enter a political minefield. I just don't have an easy solution. 

Garfman >> senin maret 1 - 16:29

You are absolutely right. The participation of countries such as Iran or North Korea, or if I'm honest, even the Philippines, is extremely questionable at best. FIFA tends to make it a bit too easy for itself in general, in situations like this, stating it will not get involved in politics and forbidding any kind of political statement. It's really part of a much bigger issue, that generally tends to exist in the world we live in: where there are riches to be found, it will attract the most corrupt and vile figures in this world, and they'll tend to muddle up everything morally and ethically. 

And what to do....yes, I also don't think there's an easy solution. Nor would I know what that should be (other than completely abolishing FIFA and replacing it with better, not morally compromised people.....as if that would ever happen :-)). I personally think that the majority of football fans boycotting this World Cup would be a start of some kind. A signal that fans want things to change. I don't see it happening, though.

Numpty >> senin maret 1 - 17:09, telah di sunting senin maret 1 - 17:29

The idea is that FIFA should just be about football, so it's absolutely right that they don't get involved in politics. 

At least that's the theory.

The World Cup totally undermines that principle.

It's such a massive deal globally and so lucrative that it gives FIFA enormous bargaining power. They can negotiate with other countries, presidents and prime ministers, as if they themselves were a small independent nation. Not unlike Facebook in many ways.  

This is what gives the FIFA delegates who get to vote on the World Cup such a powerful position. It's this structure that seems to be the main problem. Many of the delegates will either act and vote politically or use their position to line their own pockets. Or both. 

FIFA as an organisation might declare they are not political, but the delegates themselves are. It's like a small version of the United Nations with many of the same disagreements and allegiances.

Garfman >> rabu maret 3 - 08:10, telah di sunting rabu maret 3 - 08:13

Yup, that's what it all boils down to in the end. A political organization that pretends not to be one. 

And yes, you are right, the delegates who get to vote are way too powerful (especially if they're from small countries where there is little to nothing to be earned from football....it's almost like they're being invited to be corrupt)....just look at what happened to the 22 delegates who voted for the WC in Qatar. Nuff said. 

If FIFA was really serious about human rights, and the one thing that they always advocate (which feels utterly laughable in this context), fair play, this tournament would be canceled. But yes, we all know they won't.

I just hope that enough people will boycott this tournament to have some impact, so this won't ever happen again.

Stephen >> rabu maret 3 - 09:14

Do you think people wil boycott the tournament? I very much doubt enough people will do that to make a difference. I could be wrong, but I suspect people will tune in like they always do

Garfman >> rabu maret 3 - 09:44

That's why I said that I hope they do. I also don't think that most people will give two fucks (pardon my French). I hope that we are all too cynical, though.

Numpty >> rabu maret 3 - 09:48, telah di sunting rabu maret 3 - 11:45

It's fine to use the off button if something offends you. That's a choice about personal morality. 

But the chance of them knowing or even caring is worse than slim. And even if it did have an impact what are you hoping would actually change?

If you want to make a difference then it's best to try and reform FIFA in some way, starting with your own assocation. 

A body that governs world football should be democratic and give each nation a voice, right? The problem is the ideals of democracy are just not well implemented. As far as I know most nations appoint their delegates so aren't representative of the fans. Each nation and appointee has their own agenda. It can be about money, politics, power and influence or used to push their own version of morality, political correctness and diversity. 

How do you even start trying to fix that? 

Kalle >> rabu maret 3 - 12:40

With power comes corruption, aperantly it's in our nature. Even those starting out with the best intentions will eventualy have some degree of corruption when getting enough power. Or will give up out of frustration before reaching the power needed to actualy change something.