Prvenstvo Ukrajina sezona 71
Forum: Forum prvenstva 
Diskutujte vašu ligu, ko su vam favoriti ove sezone? Ko će biti promovisan a ko će ispasti, kako vaš klub napreduje?
Stand Strong (15)
Quebec stands with you. Stay strong!
Absolutely right.
With a very few exceptions the whole of the planet is with you. It's not just the governments, you have the support of most of the general population of the whole world.
The only way to get a bully to back down is to stand up to him. Putin only understands force and the threat of force. He's completely lost the plot.
We need to do more to help you and I would like my own government (the UK) to push for the direct military involvement of NATO. That, of course, brings its own risk but the risk of watching is just as great.
Whatever happens you are not alone and my thoughts and prayers are with you.
If America didn't Intervening in the situation between Russia and Ukraine，there will be no war
You've been lisening to too much progaganda.
If Russia stayed in Russia and just went back home there would be no war. It's an illegal and unnecessary war simply to grab more territory and claim it as part of Russia.
If America and the West didn't help like you suggest then, you're right, eventually the Ukraine resistance would probably crumble. But there would be more murder, rape, torture and summary executions and finally no Ukraine.
There may be peace for a few years until the next time.
Emboldened by his 'success' in Ukraine, Putin won't stop there. He would invent another excuse to invade more territory that was formerly part of the Soviet Union. Poland, Latvia, Estonia etc.
He's got a track record for doing exactly that with other territories.
Is that what you call 'no war'?
The only way to stop an aggressor is to stand up to them. Appeasement never works. The more help that Ukraine gets the quicker the war will end.
When you see your neighbour being slaughtered then the right thing to do is help them. The alternative is to have no compassion on the weak and vulnerable and walk by on the other side.
Oh，I have never told you that Russia didn't do anything wrong.But what about Ukraine？Can you tell me they didn't do anything wrong too?Do you really think that Russian really want to die?If your neighborhood is your friend.They will never have the idea to join the NATO——which is a very strong establishment military organization.As you know，NATO can be thought as Russian's huge threat，even main enemies.How can you let yourself live behind a tiger?If the American don't try to threaten Russia through Ukraine.I still think there will be big problem between Russia and Ukraine.But，I can promise there won't be a war.
At the very least，if Russia really want to start a war to Ukraine，they won't have any excuse.Since Russia has a wick economy，I don't think Russia really want to fight with Ukraine.Even the dumbest people know that this war will be a big shock to everyone.
Just think about this.I don't like the war.But I think we should understand the main reason caused this terrible war.
All in all，if Ukraine and Russia have deep cooperation，just like America and Ukraine，there can't be a war.Am I right?@Numpty
Can I ask if you are interested in a fair, reasonable and polite discussion?
If you're just looking for an argument then I really don't have the time and energy for that.
If you wish to promote pro-Russian views then I believe that it's best to do that on the Russian forum and not do so on the Ukraine league forum. Keeping opposing views separate would help to stop major arguments from developing on the forum.
Best regards.
I don't really know what you definite fair.I am just telling you my viewpoint about the main reason for the terrible war.And if you can't accept it，I am sorry for your false understanding
Fair means fair.
In a fair and friendly discussion then you agree to keep an open mind and don't use try and use clever rhetorical devices and/or logical fallacies to support your position, such as the "straw man" fallacy. You've already done that which is the reason why I started by asking whether you want a fair and reasonable discussion.
Having a viewpoint is fine, but it must be based on facts and evidence and not something false that others have invented.
Firstly, let's address the most common fallacy that you have already used so you're clear what a straw man argument is.
- The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having refuted or defeated an opponent position by misrepresenting their position and replacing it with a false one. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".
Now I'll try and address your points.
Oh，I have never told you that Russia didn't do anything wrong.But what about Ukraine？Can you tell me they didn't do anything wrong too?Do you really think that Russian really want to die?
These are all straw man arguments.
1. I never made such a claim about what you told me about Russia - this is a straw man.
2. Whether Ukraine did anything wrong or not is not my position. The questions attempts to misrepresent a position so that it can be attacked - another straw man.
3. I certainly never said and don't think that Russians want to die, so this grossly misrepresents my position.
My understanding was perfectly clear. Your first 3 points all used the straw man fallacy, which is flawed reasoning. The first two are a little more subtle but the 3rd one was blatant and egregious.
Once you use those kind of tactics that then it only undermines any good points that you do make.
So this is why I started by asking if you wanted a fair and reasonable discussion. If you do then please do not continue to use this kind of rhetoric or I'll continure showing up the flaws in your reasoning - and then we'll both be wasting our time.
Let me say, firstly, where I'm coming from as a person - as a fellow citizen of the world.
I was born - and live - in the West, in the UK.
But I'm certainly not a mouthpiece for the West. There are many values in today's western society that I do not personally share or agree with and also there are some Russian values I would prefer to our own.
I'm also a little ambivalent about democracy. Both people and societies are complex and democratic countries pass bad laws as well as good ones. What really matters to me is that we can all live at peace in countries that are fair and just, are not corrupt and do not oppress their own population or attack their neighbours.
I would rather live in a benevolent dictatorship than a bad democracy but, on balance, the worst democracies are not as bad as authoritarian regimes or sham democracies. Having said that I do not like or agree with both politicians and media attempting to export the West's values to the rest of the world. It comes across to many in other parts of the world as 'we know best'.
I also oppose globalism, the idea that all the world is gradually moving in the direction of some kind of one world system. Each country should be free to choose their own path.
For various reasons I do not entirely trust the western main stream media. I take my information from many independent sources and I also have friends from across the globe: Western Europe, Bulgaria, Kazakhstan, Poland, Czech, Romania, India, China, USA, Middle East, Africa ... although none from Ukraine and Russia.
Leaving aside your rhetorical tactics, I will attempt to answer your points when I've got some more time.
It´s just very sad, here is nobody interested about this league, or national team, just throwing here only bullsht in this forum.
I get very often bored in this league, also in this game, because of the lack of interest.
Could be closed this theme, and finish to discuss about this war?
People hear in news almost nothing else.
And I think it doesnt helps that much on the people
@Numpty
From the words you say，I can imagine you are a good man with knowledge and independent ideas.
But I'm sorry again for your false understanding.Let's review the first point I made.What I said is
- If America didn't Intervening in the situation between Russia and Ukraine，there will be no war.I still keep my viewpoint now.And I think what I said first is not about the mistake Russia or Ukraine make.
Now we can have a look on what do you say.
- If Russia stayed in Russia and just went back home there would be no war. It's an illegal and unnecessary war simply to grab more territory and claim it as part of Russia.
I should say thank you to you for your clear explanation of the concept of the straw man argument.But after understanding it well.I think that you use it first.
I didn't mention Russia or Ukraine.What I say is just about America's role in this war.But what you tell me is just about Russia's action.So I really think that you are using clever rhetorical devices and/or logical fallacies to support your position.What you have said didn't mention the cause of the war.And my first viewpoint is just about that.
And take into account manager David's suggestion.I won't say anything about the war any more in this theme.If anyone still have different ideas，please write only to my mail box.
And I wish the terrible war can finish as quickly as possible.
