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English >> Questions

Sweeper vs DM (15)

us Xandy >> sunday june 6 - 20:09, Edited sunday june 6 - 20:11

I tried to view a few games at different levels. In the 5-7 games at each of the  levels,

  • managers seemed to use two kinds of DM: DMs who looked like defenders and DMs with an almost equal amount of passing as Dueling. Some managers had Versatile sweepers. And some had dm/sw with LongShot. 
  • It looked like on an average neither kinds of DM had more goals or assists than the SWs of similar build.
  • The passing DMs and versatile SWs had a few assists and LongShot DMs and SW a few goals in their stats

 Does a sweeper tend to move into the attacking third almost the same amount  as a defensive midfielder? In other words are both sweepers and DMs  treated as (old and modern)number 6 by the game engine? Or was it just bias/ a bad sample set? For example it looked like a lot of these managers were attacking down the flanks.And neither DMs  nor SWs seemed to move wide to stop attacks. And there were  differences between the builds like Sprinter training and/or higher speeds on some of them. And I just pretended it all evened out over the 7teams' matches I looked at.

On a related note , based on y'all's experience how useful are Sprinter to defenders and Dribbler to Forwards( and AMs)?

us Xandy
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Registered2021-05-11
us Plano happyfeet
wal Numpty >> sunday june 6 - 20:32, Edited sunday june 6 - 20:43

Interesting questions. 

In my experience DMs tend to move forward more than Sweepers do. They may occasionally move to the flanks but as you noticed they mostly stay in the centre. 

As you say there are a lot of different ways to train each position and this probably reflects the view - and theories - of different managers. 

It's difficult to compare statistically how the different builds and positions perform because they play against a wide range of different opponents. 5-7 matches wouldn't even scratch the surface.  

DMs with some passing and some duelling may score assists against weaker opponents but won't get any against much stronger opponents. Their main job is to tackle and they are more effective doing this against stronger teams if they have mostly duelling. In other words DMs with  both skllls look great when you are the dominant team but can be a liability when you aren't. The main benefit of a DM with relatively low passing is it helps to retain possession. 

Sweepers with Versatile lose some of their defensive strength (-0.15 duelling) but get great passing as a benefit. This will be more passing than a DM trained with both skills, so they are more likely to provide assists when they do come forward.  What you have to weigh up is having a slightly weaker defender and the chance of more assists. 

On the other hand training longshots doesn't weaken either position apart from the small cost of the training. 

wal Numpty
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Registered2018-10-19
eng Heath Hornets
eng Stephen >> sunday june 6 - 21:18

I prefer a DM who is essentially a defender. With longshots and shielding, my player gets a few goals and draws some fouls in dangerous positions. But training time to put all those skills on a player costs a lot.

For sweeper, I sometimes play a sweeper or a CB depending on the opponent. Sweeper has one main drawback for me. This is that when he gets the ball he has to move through a lot of squares to get to one which can affect the game in an attacking sense. My current player tends to get the ball in the six yard box and then move directly to the end of his own half before passing the ball to a midfielder who takes it from there. So, you have to balance the training time against these drawbacks.

Dribbler for forward is not something I would train.

Sprinter for defender can be useful if you have a player who you are telling to get forward, such as sweepers/RB/LB, but by the time you have added the other skills the training time starts to get silly. This means I often decide against it and spend that training time on another player's key skills rather than a 'might be nice to have'.

eng Stephen
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Registered2013-08-28
eng Seaburn Beach
us Xandy >> monday june 7 - 21:58

Thanks Numpty, i agree 25-40 matches is really not a statistically significant sample size especially with different teams. Your explanation makes sense.

Thanks Stephen.That helps I hadn't taken into account the increase in costs as specials get trained.

us Xandy
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Registered2021-05-11
us Plano happyfeet
wal Numpty >> monday june 7 - 22:44

Stephen's point about training time is a good one. 

In my view the most important specials for a DM are Man Marker and Correct. But these train fairly quickly, so need to be trained last because of the 50% increase for every additional training. 

Others that are useful for a DM - without any passing - would be Longshots, Dribbling, Shielding and Sprinter.  You can't train everything as it would take months so you have to find a compromise and then make a plan starting with the longest. 

wal Numpty
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Registered2018-10-19
eng Heath Hornets
nl Aad Mansveld >> tuesday june 8 - 18:54, Edited tuesday june 8 - 18:57

A DM played as a DM has usually a lot of defensive experience. It really pays of to train him midfield. I trained my 25 star DM to a 30 stars plus one within 1/2 season like this to 1230 midfield.  Also gave him 1 ball speed to be fair. 

https://rockingsoccer.com/nl/voetbal/info/player-1927174

nl Aad Mansveld
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Registered2013-06-09
nl FC Den Haag
in Keju >> wednesday june 9 - 07:45, Edited wednesday june 9 - 07:50

Thats interesting. I never knew positional training matterd so much for star value. Does it make a player play better in games?

edit: just read that "5 points on all the trainable skills will be untrained and converted back to experience points. You will be able to use this experience to retrain your player in other trainable skills."

@Aad did you just convert some xp ( originally in duelling) to passing? 

in Keju
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Registered2014-01-24
in Bengaluru FC
wal Numpty >> wednesday june 9 - 08:02, Edited wednesday june 9 - 08:11

@Keju - positional training doesn't count directly towards star value. But positional experience matters to some extent.  

The maximum position experience from playing matches is 1000, which gives an extra 0.75 balls on all trainables. But with position training you can convert some position experience from say defence to midfield. So if you had 1200 - an extra 200 - then that 200 is worth an extra 0.15 balls, which affects the star value calculation.  

For a defensive midfielder that's the equivalent of 3 extra clicks on each of his passing, duelling and tactics, 

Bear in mind the extra 200 doesn't last forever because the direction of travel is always towards 1,000 positional xp (for the primary position) and 500 xp for the secondary position.

wal Numpty
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Registered2018-10-19
eng Heath Hornets
nl Aad Mansveld >> wednesday june 9 - 09:38, Edited wednesday june 9 - 09:42

The player had huge blocking and tactics that have been  converted to passing and tackling. I can do that once more.  Since a DM does not need blocking and he is smart, means his tactics also were way too high. The extra 0 15 balls on passing and tackling also help a lot. 

nl Aad Mansveld
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Registered2013-06-09
nl FC Den Haag
us Xandy >> wednesday june 9 - 15:59, Edited wednesday june 9 - 15:59
  1. Numpty:the direction of travel is always towards 1,000 positional xp (for the primary position) and 500 xp for the secondary position.
  2. Aad Mansveld: A DM played as a DM has usually a lot of defensive experience. It really pays of to train him midfield. 
  3. Help\Position/ Flank exper:Some positions, like defensive midfielder, contribute to two positions. A player playing as defensive midfielder can use either his defender experience or his midfielder experience, whichever is higher.

So does this mean a player playing DM  will have the higher of Defense and Midfield positional experience move towards 1000 and the lower towards 500

us Xandy
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Registered2021-05-11
us Plano happyfeet
wal Numpty >> wednesday june 9 - 16:34, Edited wednesday june 9 - 17:00

You won't find this in the manual, but from what I've worked out from observation it works like this. 

When playing as a DM, the primary position for positional xp is in midfield. And this is how the game rates the player on the match analysis screen regardless of the supposed best position on his profile. His secondary position for positional experience is as a defender. 

The positional experience gained is as follows.

  • The primary (midfield) position gains roughly 1% of the difference between 1000 and the current value. So if he is on 0 then he earns 10 and if he is on 100 then he earns 9 etc. 
  • The secondary (defence) position gains roughly 1% of the difference between 500 and the current value. So if he is on 0 then he earns 5 and if he is on 100 then he earns 4 etc. 
  • If the value is already over the maximum then the calculation is negative. So if the primary value was 1200 then he loses 2. 
  • The 2 other positions will lose as they move towards zero.
  • If playing somewhere else that doesn't contribute to a secondary position then that one position counts as 1000 and all the others count as zero. 
  • The maximum obtainable is a total of 1,500 across all positions. 

Despite what the manual suggests - that it's okay to play a defender as a DM (which it is) - it has drawbacks because a regular defender will always lose important positional experience when playing there.  This damages him in the long term, because it's easier to lose it than get it back.

If an important defender has 1000 defence xp and he plays as a DM then after the match he will lose 5 and be on 995 and get 10 back in midfield. If he plays a few more matches then it won't be long before he's on 950.  That's probably not what you want to happen.   

The simple solution for playing a defender in midfield is to always play him there and get his midfield xp up to near a 1,000. He just won't be a terribly good defender. 

Other positions work in the same way for positional experience. 

  • Wing Backs - defence (primary) and midfield (secondary)
  • Attacking Midfield - midfield (primary) and attack (secondary)
  • Wingers and Second Striker - attack (primary) and midfield (secondary) 
  • The others only contribute to one position each
wal Numpty
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Registered2018-10-19
eng Heath Hornets
us Xandy >> wednesday june 9 - 17:05, Edited wednesday june 9 - 17:11

This is probably me being a bit slow but just to extend the defender playing Dm losing positional experience discussion, If the fixed and trainable skills are  the same, does  for example a defender with positional experience defense=1000  midfield =500 playing DM perform as well as one with midfield =1000 defense = 500 playing DM.

In other words, does the defender losing his defense positional experience matter  since he is gaining midfield experience if he is going to play DM through the rest of his stay at the club

us Xandy
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Registered2021-05-11
us Plano happyfeet
wal Numpty >> wednesday june 9 - 17:13, Edited wednesday june 9 - 17:19

The short answer is I don't know for sure. The difference in performance would be too small so it's too difficult to be able to tell just by looking at the matches.  

However, the Help which you quoted clearly says it will use the higher of the two when playing the match, which in both cases would be 1,000.  I have no reason to doubt that's accurate. 

If you start with the player at 1,000 xp defence 500 xp midfield and keep playing him in midfield as a DM then at some point he will be on 750/750 and then he won't be quite as good for a while. 

My previous post was aimed solely at how much positional xp is earned - and lost. The fact that the way xp is used is different to how it's earned  probably confuses the issue. 

My personal opinion is it's badly designed. It makes no sense to me to say it 'uses the higher of the two' when playing the match if you then lose some of it and 'damage' the player. 

But the chance of that getting fixed is very slim indeed. So we just have to understand how it works and live with it.

wal Numpty
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Registered2018-10-19
eng Heath Hornets
us Xandy >> wednesday june 9 - 19:49

Thanks I interpreted the help statement to mean the  defense> midfield player will use and improve defense. Although I could have tracked the positional experience through a few games, I am glad I took the easy way out and asked :-)

us Xandy
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Registered2021-05-11
us Plano happyfeet
wal Numpty >> wednesday june 9 - 20:18, Edited wednesday june 9 - 20:25

I took a similar view when I started playing, because of the way it's worded in the Help.

  • Some positions, like defensive midfielder, contribute to two positions

At best this is misleading. But I'd say it was factually incorrect because it's only a half-truth and leaves out some essential information:

  1. that they are not treated equally
  2. if the defence xp is over 500 then playing as a DM reduces it instead of contributing

That's a penalty not a contribution. 

I don't know whether this is Vincent being careless with wording the Help or possibly being deliberately vague so the users have to find some things out for themselves.

wal Numpty
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Registered2018-10-19
eng Heath Hornets